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2017 - OAPR LMP


Garry J
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Can we have an up date soon on what is to be the rules . With Hornsby fast approaching if it is not sorted soon, I can see everyone just running the GT class . The class runs a risk of not moving forward and being lost . 

 

Cheers Pagey 

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2 hours ago, Benno said:

I'd be up for a 35k motor too  .... 

 

For me , there needs to be a distinguishable gap between this class & GT3, in Melb i was faster than all but 1 of the LMP cars with the GT3, this tells me it needs some tweeking 

 

Benno,

If you go back to my initial post, you will see that we intend just that. However, we should not forget that if we compare laps raced per minute in the Melbourne GT3 and LMP races - the winning GT3 will have ended 5th in the LMP race. We should also remember that when Andrew created the GT3 class that the aim was to be able to race them together with the LMP's. When you want to do that, you cannot have the GT3's acting as rolling road blocks, they need to be within a tenth of the LMP's to keep the racing smooth and flowing.

 

I can tell you, that we race these two classes almost every week and the guys with LMP's that are not staying in front of their own GT3's,  simply need to improve their LMP's without throwing a 10k faster motor at it. But in 2018 we will give them a little help to improve the odds - hence the purpose of this discussion going on.

 

Cheers,

 

Jan

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9 hours ago, Pagey said:

Can we have an up date soon on what is to be the rules . With Hornsby fast approaching if it is not sorted soon, I can see everyone just running the GT class . The class runs a risk of not moving forward and being lost . 

 

Cheers Pagey 

 

Pagey,

 

These rules have always been effective from the 1st of January - 2018 will be no different. But we always try to get them out there before then, so racers know what they will be.

 

Cheers,

 

Jan

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Benno, that just says that all the LMP's you were faster than are to slow, not the class as a whole.

 

Jan, if you want a 1 tenth split between the two classes, I think you already have it, and comparing different cars, driven by different drivers never works, I can only comment on what my cars and team was doing, and both drivers were within a tenth of each other, and the cars were within a tenth or two of each other.

reading all your posts on the other forum in the GT3 thread you are very happy with the lap time split between the classes.

maybe people aren't setting up their LMPs well enough ?

i understand the rules update in the new year, but for the guys relying on people like you and Gary for chassis ( if that's what's needed ), by the time you guys get stock, then we get them shipped to us, means no time for testing before Horsby, so it may be a large field of GT3s

 

Pagey, i don't think the class will die off, it just might only be raced by the guys in QLD.

i think not finding out the rule changes until the new year, and being so close to the first race will mean only a few teams choosing to run the LMP, and the class see a lull in participation, but the class will survive because we can't help ourselves, and after we get over the fact we have to spend more money to get back to where we were already, we'll buy a new LMP chassis if that's what's needed.

hey, turn that unused GJ LMP chassis into a GT3, you just need to swap the front bearing holders to PlaFit ones so you can get the front axle back far enough.

 

im not sure on the 35k motor option, won't we then need to run a 10 t pinion to make it drivable?

just a change to a 12 t pinion, with no other changes for me please.

 

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Guys,

 

The possible changes to the rules being contemplated will not be onerous, but will continue to guide this class as it has the past 5 years.

 

For what it is worth, over the past couple of months I have built 4 different LMP's, using GJ and RR options as well as different bodies. Total weight is the result of parts used - and what is more; in this class choices of modification or own design that you have free choice and desicion. During my test builds I used what I currently have and simply tried different combos. I have come to the conclusion that the rolling chassis can end up between 134 and 139g based on how they are put together. Then my bodies varied between 12 and 19g. So it is easy to see that my lightest car could be 146g and my heaviest 158g. (At the moment it is common place to add extra weight to get cars to the minimum weight). Ask yourself; are you building your cars light or heavy? As for motors and gearing etc, they are all changable within minutes. 

 

Cheers,

 

Jan

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3 hours ago, Garry J said:

Brett's GT3 in Melbourne was too fast.

 

We really should have done a tear down inspection at the end of the race just to make sure it wasn't as fast the next time it appeared :ph34r:

 

I agree Gaz, we should have looked at it very, very closely. I would like to know what the exact tolerances were on the bearings, the brush tension after he manipulated the brush holders with his soldering iron and the wheel balance weights he had on the wheel rims....B|

 

Not to mention the down force mods he had on that body....O.o

 

We'll try to catch him next time....hopefully in the race.

 

Jan

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4 hours ago, Camber said:

Why not leave the motor choice for the event. 25 might be OK on garage tracks, I still think they are way under powered for large competition tracks like Melbourne, Red Racer and even Dapto.

 

Cam,

 

Have you actually driven one of these cars with a 30 or 35K motor? If so, what pinion did you use, which track was it on and how did the lap times compare with the NSR 25 Evo (using an 11 or 12T pinion)?

 

Jan

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3 hours ago, Springbok Racer said:

 

Cam,

 

Have you actually driven one of these cars with a 30 or 35K motor? If so, what pinion did you use, which track was it on and how did the lap times compare with the NSR 25 Evo (using an 11 or 12T pinion)?

 

Jan

No but I have driven FLM cars with Cheetahs on many tracks and they are about 1/10 quicker at Dapto in comparison the other week. I'm not the only only one down here who thinks they need a bigger motor.

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As Jan said with the right combination of parts and body you can build lighter.

I managed to build one of my Johnson cars at 153g and it was far more lively and fun to drive... when I added 7g to get it back up to 160 legal for our teams race last week and the car was considerably slower.... down in performance by about 1 1/2 tenths.  So its either weight or motor to make these faster. 

 

There is another factor at play here that no-one is considering though. By nature of design an LMP is a big car and has a long wheelbase... That coupled to a long guide lead makes it a more relaxed drive than a short wheelbase GT3.  So.. obviously tracks with tight turns would suit the GT3 whereas large flowing track may better suit the LMP.    Conclusion.  different tracks will suit different cars.  

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8 hours ago, Pagey said:

Just wondering if you have driven these with bigger motors on the larger tracks yourself Jan with gearing choice . Would be good to see what your results were. 

 

Pagey,

 

Actually I have. The last time was before Melbourne when Greg and I were discussing  the class for the Slotcar Fest down there. The laptimes were less than a tenth quicker, BUT the drivability was terrible. I can also tell you that when we drove these cars (alas with c/f bodies) at the WEC and using 38k motors, the only way to get them drivable was with a 9T pinion. At the last WEC I went to (2011), I actually took one and changed the motor to the SC-12 (25k) motor we used in the Scaleauto racing at the time. I ran it with an 11T (I only had 9's, 10's and 11's with me) and it was a much nicer car to drive and within a tenth of the spec cars (even with 12 and 15 meter long straights).

 

As for comparison to the FLM (not that I think you really can) - Noel quoted that the FLM's were down to 7.2 at the APC on the RR track. Perhaps Cam will recall, that during the enduro at RR in May 2015 (the one that almost washed away), the OAPR LMP's (using 12T pinions) got down to 6.9 and ran 7.0 during most of the race.

 

Cheers,

 

Jan

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47 minutes ago, Axman said:

As Jan said with the right combination of parts and body you can build lighter.

I managed to build one of my Johnson cars at 153g and it was far more lively and fun to drive... when I added 7g to get it back up to 160 legal for our teams race last week and the car was considerably slower.... down in performance by about 1 1/2 tenths.  So its either weight or motor to make these faster. 

 

There is another factor at play here that no-one is considering though. By nature of design an LMP is a big car and has a long wheelbase... That coupled to a long guide lead makes it a more relaxed drive than a short wheelbase GT3.  So.. obviously tracks with tight turns would suit the GT3 whereas large flowing track may better suit the LMP.    Conclusion.  different tracks will suit different cars.  

 

Absolutely right Ax. One of the main motivations when this class was created - was drivability for all the drivers. It is easy to make classes faster - especially throwing more Rpm at it (and it will die the same as so many classes  before it), because all that happens is that the guys at the rear of the grid just see the gap increasing even more. Couple that with hard-to-drive cars and you simply drop the participation numbers.

 

Cheers,

 

Jan

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Thanks Jan 

   Always nice to hear and listen to experience. I’m a bit confused though with this class as it stands . I thought this was open class and pinnacle for engineering and driving . Would have thought that it would be far inaway the fastest class . If the cars are more difficult to drive so what.  There are a lot of other classes to compete in and learn your craft . I think you would be surprised that participants would love the challenge. The F1 class in Plafit is very fast and fantastic fun . Participation is always high also . We need to have different classes and not have everything always so close in speed from one class to the next .  So if we are not going to increase speed by motor,  than weight reduction seems to be the only choice and if so just tell us, so we can start testing or swapping into a GT3 . I know you have a date in Jan for rules but as mentioned earlier in I think Brett’s post , to late for Hornsby for most blokes . That would be a shame . 

 

Cheers Pagey 

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Just had an extra thought to add . We have just completed a series with the FLM at Dapto with cheater motors . The cars were exciting to drive and alive . Even our more inexperienced drivers were able to compete with relative ease . Not to many offs or trouble. In comparison my LMP was so easy to drive and slower . I’m not interested in doing a promo for Plafit or product appraisal . All I’m saying is that the LMP should be faster and by a lot . 

 

Cheers Pagey 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Jan , 

 I tested previously with 12 t and 13t pinions on the LMP .  Was quicker with the 13t but still really easy to drive. The car could easily handle more speed . 

   I have changed my testing to the GT 3 with same chassis at the moment but altered to suit shorter wheel base . Reason is because rules are still not out on this class . I needed to have an idea so Brooksy and myself can pick the class . The Gt 3 last week still had a 13t pinion with the NSR motor as I didn’t get time to swap it to the correct motor pinion . However it was probably the best car I have ever driven . Johnson chassis with that speed was sensational. I have the correct motor and gearing for a test tonight. 

      I don’t know who or why you need a spy ? Nothing to hide down here, we work together. 

 

Cheers Pagey  ( patiently waiting for rules)

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1 hour ago, Pagey said:

Jan , 

 I tested previously with 12 t and 13t pinions on the LMP .  Was quicker with the 13t but still really easy to drive. The car could easily handle more speed.

      I don’t know who or why you need a spy ? Nothing to hide down here, we work together. 

 

Cheers Pagey  ( patiently waiting for rules)

 

Hi Glen,

 

Oh sorry mate, I must have missed the information here on the forum.

 

The rules will be posted as promised - before the end of December (for the first time in 5 years).

 

Jan

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Jan 

   Just back from racing tonight. Even though It was still with the GT 3 body, on Johnson chassis as per last week but with motor and gearing changed to SRP and 12t pinion . Car was still fantastic to drive but had lost 2.5- 3 tenths per lap . It felt slow and not alive, as per last week it was sensational with the 13T pinion and NSR  . Same chassis running as per weights for this year . Now I know Garry said a committee is not the way to get stuff done for rules . Fair enough, but you did ask for feed back at the start saying it was 5 yrs as per this rule set . I was sitting patiently again waiting and not going to say any more but once again you have asked for feed back . Not a problem but the cars need to be faster in my option especially on bigger tracks . I for one will be running cars on my track with taller pinions to suit . Not at National rules for home events .You could do the same on your smaller track Jan , running what suits your track .  I think you should open it up for the event organiser to pick the motor and size  for the event and allow open gearing .  After all it’s an open chassis so if blokes can’t work out their gearing at that level there is something wrong .Leave the chassis weights alone , to nicely balanced to stuff around with . Now this is only my opinion but you did ask for feed back . Didnt spot any spies either, but there you have it . 

 

Cheers Pagey 

 

 

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